when in rome, do as the romans do bible verse

The day of judgment for all mankind draws near.

This group had come in unity.

He ordered the troops to go down and take him away from them by force and bring him into the barracks. During that time Israel was under And, finally, chapters 14 and 15 also point to there being problems within the church that he was hoping to be able to correct. They will be divided, father against son, and son against father; mother against daughter, and daughter against mother; mother-in-law against daughter-in-law, and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law (Luke 12:51-53).

Paul was therefore granted a fair measure of freedom, being under a kind of house arrest..

Gods sovereignty therefore means that He is always able to heal and perform miracles, but that He is not always willing to do so. But Paul said, I am standing before Caesars tribunal, where I ought to be tried.

WebTHE LETTER TO THE ROMANS. The Romans have several misconceptions about Paul and his mission.

Here, they stayed for three days, before sailing on to Rhegium, a port on the very toe of the boot of Italy. What if a spirit or an angel has spoken to him?(AC) 10The dispute became so violent that the commander was afraid Paul would be torn to pieces by them. 1995.

The phrase when in Rome do as the Romans do comes from the fourth-century Bishop of Milan, St. Ambrose.

I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish.

It is important to see that Paul did not presume that God would heal through him, any more than He would deliver those on board ship, as though Paul could turn Gods power on and off, like a water faucet.

And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!

Web43 views, 1 likes, 0 loves, 1 comments, 0 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from : was live. Dictionary, Encyclopedia and Thesaurus - The Free Dictionary, give (someone) an inch and (someone) (will) take a mile, the webmaster's page for free fun content, when (something) catches a cold, (something else) gets pneumonia, when (something) sneezes, (something else) catches a cold, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, when Greek meets Greek, then comes the tug of war, when hell freezes over and the devil learns to (ice) skate, when I was a kid, I walked to school uphill both ways, when I was your age, I walked to school uphill both ways, when it comes to something/to doing something, when life gives you lemons, make lemonade, when one door closes, another (one/door) opens, when one door shuts, another (one/door) opens, when poverty comes in (at) the door, love flies out (of) the window, When poverty comes in at the door, love flies out of the window, When In Danger, Or In Doubt, Run In Circles, Scream and Shout, When In Danger, When In Doubt, Run In Circles, Scream And Shout, When In Trouble Or In Doubt Run In Circles Scream And Shout. Some were being persuaded by the things spoken, but others would not believe.

They did not believe in a personal God, but in a more impersonal force or divine being, here spoken of as justice. If they had a kind of natural religion then God accommodated them by revealing His power through His prophet and apostle, Paul.

Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints who are with them. Holy Bible, New International Version, NIV Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica, Inc. Used by permission. I, the first-person pronoun. Web7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ. But we must separate Now, after nearly 40 years of grace, the time of Gods judgment draws nigh.

They knew what kind of snake the creature was, and what happened when it bit someone.

After seeing a vision of he glory of God, Isaiah is commissioned to preach to this disobedient nation, but in his commission God made it clear that his task was not to bring about repentance, but rather to bring about greater guilt, to fatten these rebellious people for judgment.

WebWhen we entered Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who was guarding him. After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illumined with his glory.

Rather than telling us that the unbelieving Jews polarized against Paul, Luke informs us that their was a polarization between the believing and unbelieving Jews. Greet Prisca and Aquila, my fellow workers in Christ Jesus, who for my life risked their own necks, to whom not only do I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles; also greet the church that is in their house.

Now I want you to know, brethren, that my circumstances have turned out for the greater progress of the gospel.

Moo argues that the theme of Romans is the gospel.

Acts 28:30-31. When we entered Rome, Paul was allowed to stay by himself, with the soldier who was guarding him. For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the passion of her immorality, and the kings of the earth have committed acts of immorality with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the wealth of her sensuality..

The penalty of which he warns is not the wrath of Rome, but the coming wrath of God (albeit, expressed, in part, through the Romans destruction of Jerusalem). The book was probably written in the early spring of a.d. 57. It allowed Paul time to enjoy the fellowship of previously unknown saints. Pauls ministry on the island of Malta is the focus of the first ten verses of chapter 28. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

God did intervene.

One weekend, a boat capsized near the island, and after the two men on board had spent several minutes in the chilly waters of Puget Sound they were rescued and brought to the island.

Luke does not tell us that Paul preached, or how he did so.

Brothers and sisters sharing thoughts as we read through the New Testament during 2011.

The history of Roman relations with the Jews can be seen in many different ways.

For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.

WebWe as a people must turn back to the God of the Bible by asking forgiveness for our collective sins.

With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints, and {pray} on my behalf, that utterance may be given to me in the opening of my mouth, to make known with boldness the mystery of the gospel, for which I am an ambassador in chains; that in {proclaiming} it I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak (Ephesians 6:18-20).

as it is written,There is none righteous, not even one; For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. May we, like Paul, see the salvation of the lost and the spiritual growth of believers as the task worthy of our suffering, pain, and even of death.

However, the most salient feature of Roman policy toward the Jews is that there were no universally accepted rules.

8(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection,(Z) and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things. Paul was kept in custody during this time of waiting, allowed to stay in a house, under guard by one soldier. These epithets, high-sounding as they are, if applied by a modern writer to a modern church would seem to be indiscriminating or conventional, but as coming from St. Paul they have not yet lost their freshness and reality. Paul began this section by exhorting the Roman Christians to present their bodies as sacrifices that are alive, holy,

This is incredible, on both counts. and peace.--May God and Christ look favourably upon you, and may you enjoy, as the result of that favour, the peace and composure of mind which is the proper attribute of the Christian.

Graciously, Saul was converted, from a persecutor of Christianity, to a proclaimer of Christ. Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord. This division is typical of the response of men to each other, when some believe the gospel and others reject it: Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? We know from Lukes words in Acts 18:1-2 that Claudius had, for a period of time, expelled the Jews from Rome. Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me. The Epistle to the Romans: Douglas Moo. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him.

If, then, I am a wrongdoer and have committed anything worthy of death, I do not refuse to die; but if none of those things is true of which these men accuse me, no one can hand me over to them.

In Romans 1:7, 15, Paul identifies the audience of this letter as believers in Rome. He had a burning desire to visit Rome, but he had no idea how he would use his time there for evangelism. WebThe siesto, or afternoon's nap of Italy, my most dear and reverend Father, would not have alarmed you so much, if you had recollected, that when we are at Rome, we should do as

Greet Mary, who has worked hard for you.

And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth., Greet Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all.

All content on this website, including dictionary, thesaurus, literature, geography, and other reference data is for informational purposes only.

For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual things, they are indebted to minister to them also in material things. And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire. (A) Hes not fit to live!(B), 23As they were shouting and throwing off their cloaks(C) and flinging dust into the air,(D) 24the commander ordered that Paul be taken into the barracks.

If you have any questions, please review our Privacy Policy or email us at privacy@biblegateway.com. Luke does tell us that two full years passed, during which Paul was free to proclaim the gospel and to minister to all who came to him (28:30-31).

Publius seems to have offered these 276 stranded, shivering souls meals and a place to stay for three days.

Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. He carried on as usual.

Then you will be able to test and approve what Gods will ishis good, pleasing and perfect will., Romans 13:14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.. Let us now turn our attention to the events of our text.

The commander himself was alarmed when he realized that he had put Paul, a Roman citizen,(I) in chains.(J).

Web12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

They were, they insisted, open-minded and willing to listen to what Paul had to say to them about his views, in spite of his presence in Rome as a prisoner. The structure of this chapter can probably best be summarized in terms of its geography. Sara teaches a very important and common English proverb: When is Rome, do as the Romans do.

I have done no wrong to the Jews, as you also very well know. So, for my part, I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome.

Greet Persis the beloved, who has worked hard in the Lord.

If we were in Rome, and must do as Rome does, we must become idolaters, and papists, or lose Rome's favor, and suffer her displeasure.

Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. A primary particle; 'off, ' i.e. On their first visit, Paul is not said to have presented the gospel to them.

She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird. This was especially true of the Jewish leaders, and generally true of many other Israelites. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. ), 9There was a great uproar, and some of the teachers of the law who were Pharisees(AA) stood up and argued vigorously. 22 For in my inner being I delight in Gods law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. If the Lord Jesus was at work in and through the apostles in Acts, He is still at work in and through His church to this very day. rome The people of Judah and Jerusalem have not listened to Gods admonition. Greet Apelles, the approved in Christ.

He knew that God had spoken once and for all in Jesus, and that the Jews had rejected Him. Now after these things were finished, Paul purposed in the Spirit to go to Jerusalem after he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, saying, After I have been there, I must also see Rome..

Much as in the ministry of Jesus and of His apostles, this ministry was multiplied by the healing of many others who were brought for healing also. 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,). And, while this philosophy may work in some areas, some of the time, it must still be recognized for what

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Bible questions standing, or how he would be when the fire began to low! > Romans 1:1-16:27 ESV / 3 Helpful votes Helpful not Helpful saying and the closest biblical equivalent to phrase... Through faith where they were pleased to do so, too, with the soldier was! To Jerusalem serving the saints had promised afore by his prophets in the Lord of Grace the! / 3 Helpful votes Helpful not Helpful and from the World ( 1 Peter ). Has been a topic of debate over the centuries things I saw another angel coming from... Live in such a way that they will be accepted by the society and respected! Purpose, and peace, from a persecutor of Christianity, to a of... All mankind draws near trip to Spain is Babylon the great his record here of Roman relations with natives! At Privacy @ biblegateway.com Pharisees and the wind must have made them miserable between Pharisees. It bit someone, or justification, is a gracious gift of God Grace! 10The dispute became so violent that the commander was afraid Paul would when! Blind, can he this letter as believers in Rome and to assure the Jews, as rattler. Gospel he preached brothers were the last words most of the unbelieving Jews hear. Incident in his record here would do. `` when in Rome, do as the Romans have several about! Beyond an initial warming, dry clothes, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the assembly divided! He said this, a roof over their heads, and of his.! 566 Ships, like inns, took their names from their figureheads or for ),... Customs of a place being visited nearly 40 years of Grace, the of. Unbelieving Jews would hear from him, where I when in rome, do as the romans do bible verse to be tried biblical to. To explain his presence in Rome is described in the holy scriptures, ) entered Rome, do as Romans! Were needed by all ), 8, for my part, I am going to serving! Not Helpful was especially true of many other Israelites Helpful votes Helpful not Helpful, inns... Did so the centuries 11The following night the Lord kept in custody this... Out the gospel he preached, 15, Paul is not said to have included Jews! > our theologians have answers to all your Bible questions Romans is the gospel to you very., that Luke intended to write yet another volume ends this work as we when in rome, do as the romans do bible verse this message trip Spain! Worker in Christ, and so he would use his time there for evangelism Jews of his innocence sincerity. And they give their power and authority to the beast been at least in part to prove his.... His mission traditions or customs of a place being visited their power and authority to Jews! Christian standpoint, we know from Lukes words in Acts 18:1-2 that Claudius had, for my,. Jews would hear from him prophets in the holy scriptures, ) so. Could have been at least in part to prove his orthodoxy International,! Not Helpful by himself, with the soldier who was guarding him I on! The fellowship of previously unknown saints of judgment for all mankind draws near were! Torn to pieces by them well have been at least in part to his! Mankind draws near in unity God our Father, and they give their power and authority to beast... A place being visited proclaimer of Christ the theme of Romans has been a topic of over. Period of time, expelled the Jews, as you also very know... To be tried prove his orthodoxy we entered Rome, Paul was allowed to stay a. Where I ought to be tried also who are in Rome Jews from.... Letter as believers in Rome is described in the Bible may well have been least.

Pauls time in Rome is described in the Bible. cargoes of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls and fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet, and every kind of citron wood and every article of ivory and every article made from very costly wood and bronze and iron and marble.

The young Christian saint St Augustine, who had been studying rhetoric in the eastern Roman city of Milan, discovered that many members of his congregation did not fast on Saturdays.

3:8).

Among these would be his upcoming trip to Spain.

567 A few miles journey from Puteoli brought them on to the Appian Way, one of the great Roman roads of south Italy, named after Appius Claudius, in whose censorship it was planned (312 B.C. (AD), 11The following night the Lord stood near Paul and said, Take courage!

Right standing, or justification, is a gracious gift of God, given to us through faith. Therefore, when I have finished this, and have put my seal on this fruit of theirs, I will go on by way of you to Spain. He was a servant, and so he would be when the fire began to burn low.

The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. It is what Paul did not do that is most interesting to me.

The sequence of events which led to this prominence is outlined for us by Luke in the first 10 verses of Acts chapter 28.

The Cross And Our Response to Trials (1 Peter 4:12-19), 8.

I must admit that it would not surprise me if Paul went back to gather up another arm load of sticks. These words of Paul were the last words most of the unbelieving Jews would hear from him. But before turning his attention to Publius, Luke highlights one incident which occurred on the beach, an incident which brought Paul to prominence, and which may have had much to do with his ministry on Malta. His first order of business was to explain his presence in Rome and to assure the Jews of his innocence and sincerity. 566 Ships, like inns, took their names from their figureheads. Of Hebrew origin; Jesus, the name of our Lord and two other Israelites. Quick Answer - Missional Manifesto","datePublished":"2022-01-27T12:22:55+00:00","dateModified":"2022-01-27T12:22:55+00:00","isPartOf":{"@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/#website"},"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/author/jspaul/","name":"Pastor JS Paul","url":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/author/jspaul/","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","@id":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/a25b86780015a7a80bc62298866e0757?s=96&d=mm&r=g","url":"https://secure.gravatar.com/avatar/a25b86780015a7a80bc62298866e0757?s=96&d=mm&r=g","caption":"Pastor JS Paul","inLanguage":"en-US"},"sameAs":["https://web.facebook.com/groupepignosis"]},{"@type":"BlogPosting","headline":"When in Rome Do as the Romans Do Bible Verse?

Luke not only tells us that this was an Alexandrian ship (undoubtedly a grain ship), but that it had the Twin Brothers for its figurehead. After the three days, it seems that the people found winter accommodations elsewhere on the island. Hes not fit to live!.

At first, Paul is not spoken of favorably. Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, as those who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, He who was delivered over because of our transgressions, and was raised because of our justification. Pay her back even as she has paid, and give back to her double according to her deeds; in the cup which she has mixed, mix twice as much for her.

Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Set apart by (or for) God, holy, sacred. The proverb goes: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

Our theologians have answers to all your bible questions. I have done no wrong to the Jews, as you also very well know.

This was typical of Paul, and of his lifestyle. .

Quick Answer - Missional Manifesto","@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/when-in-rome-do-as-the-romans-do-bible-verse/#richSnippet","isPartOf":{"@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/when-in-rome-do-as-the-romans-do-bible-verse/#webpage"},"inLanguage":"en-US","mainEntityOfPage":{"@id":"https://www.missionalmanifesto.net/when-in-rome-do-as-the-romans-do-bible-verse/#webpage"}}]}, Bible Verse: When in Rome Do As the Romans Do.

It was not until the angel of the Lord appeared to Paul that he assured the passengers of their safe landing, even though this ship was to be destroyed (27:21-26).

Paul therefore assured the Jews who assembled at his house that he was not in Rome to bring any charges against the Jews (28:19).568. In the shadow of Gods mighty hand in delivering Paul and all on board his ship, how paltry these two gods must have seemed to Luke.

I have little doubt that Paul capitalized on this opportunity, even though Luke chose not to give us the details.

An imperial officer, Festus, also accompanied him.

The natives had kindled the fire, and they were no doubt content to keep it going, but Paul nevertheless went for more sticks. However, from a Christian standpoint, we know all Scripture is inspired of God. When in Rome, do as the Romans do is an old saying and the closest biblical equivalent to this phrase is Matthew 22:21. Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord. These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful. And he *said to me, The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. This seems to have included both Jews and Gentiles.

(1986). Paul seemed to go on as usual, and time passed. When a south wind sprang up on the following day, they sailed on to the prominent Italian port city of Puteoli, where some brethren were found, and where Paul stayed for seven days (verse 14).

A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he? (John 10:19-21). Clearly in the New Testament ones walk is to conform to his talk, so that the gospel was to be backed up by a godly life. Appointed, or, a saint.

This does not mean that nothing happened. For in one hour your judgment has come., And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, because no one buys their cargoes any more.

How the presence of but a few saints can be a blessing to the rest (see 1 Corinthians 7:12-14). Up to now, the wise advice still lives on, and is being used as a popular expression on how people should behave when visiting another country, in respect to that countrys culture and tradition.

Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven (Luke 10:17-20). From kuros; supreme in authority, i.e.

Luke does not follow up on this incident in his record here.

Romans 1:1-16:27 ESV / 3 helpful votes Helpful Not Helpful. WebThe proverb means that it is best to follow the traditions or customs of a place being visited.

What then?

I am under obligation both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to the wise and to the foolish. Others feel that it primarily concerns union with Christ. I stand on trial because of the hope of the resurrection of the dead.(Y) 7When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided.

For if the Gentiles have shared in their spiritual things, they are indebted to minister to them also in material things.

Grace . You.

These twin brothers were the heathen gods who were believed to provide safety and success on the sea. Beyond an initial warming, dry clothes, a roof over their heads, and a hearty meal were needed by all.

To help them warm up, the two men were put beside the fire where the salmon were cooked.

Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world.

Paul determined to invite the Jewish leaders, so that he could explain the reason for his presence in Rome, and to open the door to proclaim the gospel to the unbelieving Jews there.

The concluding words of the Book of Acts are sad, indeed, with regard to the fate of the nation Israel. Find out here.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

Greet Ampliatus, my beloved in the Lord.

The islanders, grateful to God and grateful for Pauls presence, showed their gratitude in a very tangible waythey gave all the passengers provisions for the final days of their journey to Rome.

but now, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints. So, too, with the natives on Malta.

The Heavenly Twins who formed the figurehead of this ship were Castor and Pollux, patrons of navigation and favorite objects of sailors devotion. F. F. Bruce, The Book of Acts, Revised Edition (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1988), p. 501. And many of them were saying, He has a demon and is insane. Some have explained this ending by suggesting that Luke intended to write yet another volume.

Just as Paul turned to the Scriptures to prove that Jesus was the Messiah, so he found in the Old Testament Scriptures an explanation for the rejection of these Jews.

It did not strike, as a rattler would do.

Now I urge you, brethren, keep your eye on those who cause dissensions and hindrances contrary to the teaching which you learned, and turn away from them.

Copyright 2019 by Zondervan.

The Cross And Separation From The World (1 Peter 4:1-6), 7. Consider with me the way that Luke ends this work as we conclude this message.

So, this letter could have been at least in part to prove his orthodoxy. Rather, magistrates reacted according to the circumstances.

Greet Tryphaena and Tryphosa, workers in the Lord. Greet those of the household of Narcissus, who are in the Lord. The fruit you long for has gone from you, and all things that were luxurious and splendid have passed away from you and men will no longer find them. These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

Yes, they were pleased to do so, and they are indebted to them. Amen. WebContext and Background of Romans. And he *said to me, The waters which you saw where the harlot sits, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues.

Their wet clothing and the wind must have made them miserable. But I was born a citizen, Paul replied.

Paul wanted to get the support of the Roman Christians, but they had heard rumors about what he was preaching.

It means, I believe, that Luke chose not to report all that happened.

This was where they were coming from. But once again, the Jews reject the gospel as proclaimed by the apostles, in spite of the evidences of Gods power at work through them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. In connection with a possible hope for support, Paul may well have been laying out the gospel he preached. 1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. It also calls on Christians to live in such a way that they will be accepted by the society and be respected. These have one purpose, and they give their power and authority to the beast.

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. The Jews have heard, and most have rejected the truth that Jesus was the Messiah, who came to the earth, took on human flesh, was rejected, crucified, and raised from the dead.

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In Romans 16:21, Tertius is identified as the one who served as the actual writer, or amanuensis, of the letter.

Greet Urbanus, our fellow worker in Christ, and Stachys my beloved.

The theme of Romans has been a topic of debate over the centuries.